Relentless Customer Leader Podcast

Chris (00:01)
Well, it's great to see you, Nicole. Thanks for taking some time out of your busy schedule to talk with me today about your leadership journey and the great career you've had over many years here in Sydney. Probably a really good place to start is to maybe give me a bit of your background and how you sort of developed an interest in business and maybe going back to the very early days of your career and how that all sort of started for you.

Nicole Noye (00:28)
Yeah, thanks Chris for having me. I'm really excited to be part of this podcast today. Yeah, it's a really interesting sort of journey at school. So I'm not your traditional CEO or executive. I failed my HSC, so that's where we started. But I wasn't studious at all, 248 out of 500 in the old days. And so at school, what I enjoyed doing, I did well. Most of that was

playing tennis. I represented the school in the biggest comp and we won that comp. And the second thing I did a lot of when I was at school was brownies and gold guides. I was with that for eight years and achieved my BP emblem, which is now like the Queen's Guide emblem. And so both of those was showed me that when I actually enjoyed doing something, I threw my heart and mind at it. But school was not the ideal world for me.

Chris (01:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. that's great. I mean, you obviously developed a competitive spirit though, through tennis and engaging other people through the girl guides and so on. So that was obviously a great job.

Nicole Noye (01:33)
Absolutely, and I was probably too competitive in my earlier days. Yes, so it was interesting. So I came out of school really and didn't know what I wanted to do. I had this competitive spirit. I was very passionate about what I enjoyed doing. And because I found my HSC, I actually didn't get a uni degree. So I'm very non -typical as far as a senior executive. So.

After about three or four months after I finished school, mum said, you need to go and get a job. You just can't stay at home. And so I went into mum said, well, where do you want to work? And I said, retail sounds good. So I went into David Jones in January to apply for a casual assistant role. And it's funny. If most people know retail, you don't go for roles in January because that's when all the Christmas casuals are being let off. But I met a lovely guy behind the desk and he said to me,

You seem lovely, would you do a receptionist job? So I actually started my career as a receptionist at David Jones Chatswood and actually had to answer the telephones for the first eight months of my career. So it's a funny way you start. And then I moved on to the shop floor after that. And I worked in the young fashion department and as a young girl, you always enjoy doing that. And I love bringing out the new fashion and putting it out on the racks and selling it. So I found my, my

experience and most probably customer focus from the early days in being very, I could get sales because I love the product and I love talking to people and certainly learn from the shop floor.

Chris (03:09)
Yeah, it was a perfect combination. So something that probably most people don't know about me, but I was actually going for a job when I was sort of 14 or so at David Jones as well. Early in my sort of working days, but I didn't get the job. I was rejected. I didn't get the secretary option at that time. So I had to go back and start, you know, keep studying for me. So it's interesting how those things affect your trajectory.

Nicole Noye (03:12)
So.

there you go.

What?

so yeah, I did a few jobs during school time as well, but this was my first like real job. And, you know, people talk to this day, why did you enjoy it so much? But there's nothing more amazing than opening up a box and finding new product in there and then being able to sell that product. And most probably learn more about putting what you put into it is what you get out of it, right? And it was super fun. And after a couple of years doing that, it was

fast, interesting, the store manager of Chatswood came and said to me, have you thought of doing the David Jones cadetship? And I was like, no, I hadn't thought of that. And she said, I think you'd be fantastic. So I actually applied for the cadetship and I actually got on, I was one of the only, there was only a handful of non -university graduates that made it onto that cadetship and I was one of them. So I was very fortunate to be able to do that.

The cadetship taught me a lot about leadership and focus. It was the old, you did five days on the shop floor or you rotated around, then you did six days studying. And then of course I had to get a part -time job as well, pulling beers to be able to afford everything because they didn't pay you very much back in those days. So I was very lucky to do that cadetship and pass and get through to being a manager on the shop floor at a pretty young age.

Chris (04:57)
Yeah, yeah. And I imagine, you know, just the experience of dealing with customers was something that would have shaped how you think about business and leadership and those sorts of things. Do you remember sort of some of those early interactions with customers? Is there any that stand out for you? Any sort of stories or things that were memorable for you?

Nicole Noye (05:10)
Absolutely. So I think you're frozen.

Yeah, look, you know what? Being on the shop floor, and it's been through my whole career, is actually being back on the shop floor is key to anybody successful in a customer business. And when I say shop floor, it doesn't mean actually on the floor. It could be interacting with however you interact with your customer. The customer will tell you a lot about what they're looking for, what they want, what they want from your business. And they really help give you the pathway of what you need to do to be successful.

What I learned was, I know it sounds very basic, but things like stay in stock of your best sellers. I know that's 101, but if you don't stay in stock of your best sellers, then you can't supply the demand and you actually can't make your sales. So that was the first one. The second one is not necessarily senior management actually knows what the customer wants. So giving...

giving the opportunity to be able to pass through from the floor or however you talk to the customer, through to management so that they actually understand what the customer's looking for. And I suppose the last one is just don't patronize a customer. Actually look after them and just be friendly. I don't agree to having a script in how you sell because I think everybody's different.

But I do believe in being able to talk to that customer as a human being and help them and support them through what they're looking for. You do those things and you flow that through your whole work career and looking after the customer will end up providing results. And I think sometimes businesses focus on the results rather than how we look after customers. So during my career, and I'm proud to say every time I took on a CEO role,

whether it be retail or in the bowling and entertainment or even in fitness, if you focus on the NPS or how we look after the customer, then everything else will flow and profitability will come out at the end of that. Yeah.

Chris (07:16)
Yeah. And I mean, just speaking of CEO roles, you've had a number of these during your career. I mean, when did it become clear that that was something that you wanted to sort of aspire to and maybe take on leadership roles like that?

Nicole Noye (07:34)
Chris, sorry you cut it in and out, so I don't know what you actually just said, sorry. I don't know if it's me or you again, but.

Chris (07:40)
Let me repeat it. I was just saying that you've had many CEO roles over your career. And when did it sort of become clear that you wanted to take on that sort of level of responsibility to really lead some of these organisations?

Nicole Noye (07:46)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting because of my background and not having done a university degree, I didn't ever really focus on the CEO role. I just focused on doing well at whatever position I was at. So if you'd actually asked me at that age, would I ever be CEO? I'd most probably say to you, I didn't. It wasn't the intention. I just.

did what I did well and enjoyed it and then got promoted. So it was interesting. That's probably the biggest part of my journey to get to that CEO role was when I was working with Angus and Coon and Goldmark. I was very lucky to be there. An unusual career where I had 18 years with one organization and most people say these days you should never do that. But I actually did 12 different roles in that 18 years. I started as a store manager and then worked up.

my way up the ranks. And I actually, the MD at the time was there for the whole 18 years and still one of my mentors to today. And he watched my journey and almost helped me. I did everything I did, store manager, regional manager. Then he moved me into the buying office. I did buying, merchandise planning and ended up running marketing and then went into the warehouse as well. So he basically rounded my career over that 18 years.

Once I'd done the shop floor stuff, so in the operations, and then I'd done the strategy behind the scenes and then the buying, I was quite well -rounded for the next step into a GM role, whereas some people come either from the one side of operations or the other side of buying. But I was lucky in 18 years to have had experience on both sides, which then gave me the ability to be a GM. And once I was a GM,

I was just over 30 when I became a general manager, so running a hundred and, I think it was 120 stores at that stage. So it was a pretty exciting time for me. And I learned that if you just throw everything into it and give it what you've got, you'll not only enjoy it, but you'll actually become a good leader. But then he realized, and now I'm telling you, the low lights is, most probably in my early days, I was quite...

to that point competitive that we discussed at the early onset and very driven. And I look back now and most probably too assertive and too focused on results and certainly have become better rounded since then.

Chris (10:19)
Yeah, yeah. And where does that assertiveness come from, Nicole? Is that something that came naturally to you or?

Nicole Noye (10:29)
Look, I don't know. I'm a high D. I do disc. I don't know if you do disc, but there's probably the oldest of four kids that helps playing competitive tennis, even in Girl Guides and Brownies. When I first started in Brownies, after the first year, I got promoted to a patrol leader, which is when you run a group of a team of six of you. So even in my early days, I was the oldest. I had to do whatever mum needed for the kids. Then I had to do the same Brownies. And then even in the tennis.

Chris (10:34)
Yep, okay.

Nicole Noye (10:59)
you know, focusing on driving the team and making sure that they achieve the results that you need to. So all of that grounding most probably. And it's interesting because I'm, we'll talk about it later, but I've had a coach in the last couple of years and just understanding that what gets you to a CEO role. And he's been, he taught me a lot over the last couple of years. What gets you there is not necessarily what keeps you there.

Chris (11:24)
Yeah, yeah, there are different skill sets and different approaches that are needed at different levels of the business. And, you know, it's great to hear that story because, you know, you've obviously had incredible experiences at Angus and Coot during that long period of time that gave you tremendous exposure to all sorts of the different, you know, types of elements of the business. What's interesting then is...

You've then moved on into other businesses, right, and taken on CEO roles and gone in at that level. How did you sort of approach that? I mean, how did you think about, I come going into this new environment, there's a team there, there's a business already there. I didn't grow up in this business. This is something new. How did you sort of approach, you know, taking on those roles?

Nicole Noye (12:11)
question. It's one of the ones I look at and I'm one of the fortunate ones that jumped a number of industries over the last years. But what happened to me, I'd been in specialty. So when I after I finished at Goldmark and Angus Nkut I moved into Braz and things and then into Diva. So I'd had most probably by that stage maybe 15 years of experience.

as CEO or general manager and so on, but all in specialty retailing. So, and so what I'd learn is multi -site specialty retailing, importance of purchasing and buying and your supply chain. So I had that pretty well grounded. Most probably what I didn't have well grounded was my leadership skills. I was very driven, as I said earlier, but I, it was interesting. Each of the businesses that I'd gone into had needed some form of transformation or change.

And so my role in each of the businesses was to take the strategy and the vision with the team and put together an action plan to implement to improve business performance. And so I had that pretty well down pat by the time I'd finished at Diva and bras and things. And so...

the chair of bras and things who's one of my mentors today, he said to me, Nicole, you're actually not a specialty retailer. What you are is a transformation manager, a change manager. And so he said to me, you've got to start thinking outside of specialty retailing. So he really challenged me to say, it's time for you to move out of that sector and look at something different. So typical me, as I said, I never...

actually career focused to jump the next step. So I hadn't even thought through that. So he actually sat down and helped me craft my resume. And I know resumes really at the end of the day don't mean that much. It's obviously your experience and so on. But what he did was get my mindset to actually understand that what my skill set was, was creating a strategy, creating a vision.

taking the team on board as part of that vision and then transforming the business over a period of time. So I got approached, it's funny, after being at Angus & Coon Goldmark for 18 years, then I was with Brett Blundy for seven years. So I'd only really had outside of David Jones, just prior to that, three roles, three companies I'd worked for in what 20 years, or 25 years. So I got approached.

for the bowling and entertainment division CEO role with Ardent. And it was a funny thing. So they rang me and I went bowling, entertainment, I have no understanding of any of that business. And they said, well, that's what we actually want. We don't want somebody that understands entertainment. What we want is somebody that can drive customer focus and team focus to be able to improve the results and reinvent that business. And I'll never forget when they rang me about it, I always go out and do your...

checkouts and test it out to see if it's something that interests me. And I walked into those bowling venues and gosh, the smell of the oil from old chips, the bowling lanes, the ripped seats, the venues that hadn't been done up for so many years. And I went into those as a customer and went, my gosh, this is a mess. And so I rang my mentor back, Bob, and said, hey Bob, I know you said I need to jump industries or...

transform a different business but this is just a disaster. And he said, that's perfect. He said, Nicole, what is your skillset? And I went, yeah, improving businesses. And he said, well, you can do it with this industry now. And I was like, really? I just don't think this is the right thing for me. But he was right as always. And I went into that business with all the skillset that I'd had of understanding the customer. And I'll never forget,

I got the leadership team right, which is always where you focus to start with making sure you've got the right people in the right roles. And then we all went out to one venue for, I think it was six hours. And we actually did the food and beverage package. We did the bowling, we did the laser tag. And at the end of that six hours, we all sat there and went, wow, we got lots of issues. Or you could say the opposite is we've got lots of opportunity to improve the business.

So yeah, that's how I jumped industries. And once I'd done that once, then you get more confident that you can do it again. So I've done so many different industries now, but really all of them have been focused on the customer as a key component and team as a key component as well.

Chris (16:57)
Yeah, just thinking about the team, Nicole, I mean, when you when you sort of looking to make an assessment of the team and where they are, what types of characteristics or what were you looking for? How would you sort of make that assessment?

Nicole Noye (17:12)
So if you go back, we talked about it a bit earlier. In my early days, I was a bit too competitive and assertive. And when I was at Angus and Coot and Goldmark, the MD that I mentioned earlier that sort of really mentored me through that 18 years, he actually employed a psychologist to help us with how we were employing team and getting the right team.

And he also paid her to support me to be able to give me ideas on how I can improve my leadership skills as well. And after about three months after she was engaged and we did assessments on each person as we were employing them, she goes, she rang me one day, she goes, Nicole, not everybody's like you. All you're doing is employing people that are like you, because that's what you think success is.

And she said to me, what you need to do is employ people that aren't like you so you can have a better balanced team approach. The second part most probably goes back to that assertive and competitiveness as well is that not everybody thinks like you. And if they're smarter than you, then that's a really good thing because it'll help ground out your...

your team. So I look back now and in my early days I most probably employed people that were similar to me but after her coaching she taught me that everybody is different, enjoy those differences and if they are different play to what they're good at.

and let them run and let them do what they're good at. And don't pretend that you're the one that knows all the answers. And it was a good little bit of advice that I got back in my early days. And as I matured in each of these roles, I found it more and more exciting to be able to employ people that are better than me, that know their stuff better than I do in their category, and then bring them all together as a team. And my role is as a leader is to encourage and challenge and coach them not to tell them.

to do. So yeah so it's hard and when you go into a business and you and you look at who's good or what who you want to keep or who's right for the role what you're looking for is not necessarily just the skill set but also the passion to want to achieve and the passion to want to do a good job in that category. So it's a funny thing and whether they're green or they're more mature it doesn't actually really matter but you want somebody in the role that actually cares about the business.

wants to drive the business, wants to be part of a team and comfortable to be able to challenge not only myself but the rest of the team on areas that we need to improve.

Chris (19:55)
Yeah, yeah. And I imagine that that early experience with you and the team going in and sort of experiencing things together as customers, right? I imagine that would have been quite a powerful experience to really get people aligned and so on. Is that something that you... And did you do that at other roles as well as that sort of then became your approach?

Nicole Noye (20:12)
Absolutely.

Every role. One of the things I learned at Braz and things so long ago. So every Thursday we were on the shop floor for the whole day, even as a CEO. And that was a really good baseline for me to recognise that everybody says as CEO, you shouldn't be sitting behind a desk. That's not your job.

right? The more you go out as a leader and what I learned over those years is it's not just you going out because if you see things and then you go back to the office and say I saw this I saw that then they'll go well you know and become defensive but if you're actually out on the shop floor with your team frequently and they can all see what's going on then it then it removes that me telling them what to do and they can see it for themselves and therefore you can

then have a coffee and discuss what you've just seen. And then it's their opportunity to, how can they fix it or improve it or make it different? So it's really important. I think anybody that sits behind a desk is not a true leader.

Chris (21:18)
Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great point. And speaking of leadership, I know there was this terrible tragedy, a dream world, and you were involved in then trying to rebuild that organization. Can you tell me a bit about how you sort of approached that? Because it was obviously tragic circumstances that needed to be overcome and then rebuilt and reenergized that organization.

and bring customers back to.

Nicole Noye (21:50)
Yeah, it was a really hard time in my career. So I was at that stage, I was chief experience officer for Arden overseeing not only Dreamworld, but also the bowling and entertainment division that was over in the US. So I was approached for the opportunity to go up there and help through what was a very challenging time. The business had been clearly affected by the tragedy. And well, unfortunately, what happened was the CEO stepped down just before.

the Coronial Inquiry and so there was a vacancy there which was most probably one of the hardest times in the business and it was interesting. I got the call on a Saturday going, would you go up there and help oversee that business until they found a new CEO? And I said as long as I know it's interim, I'm happy to do that and the reason I wanted it interim was obviously it's up in Queensland and you needed to be up there physically to be able to manage that business. So it was a

It was a hard thing, but it was a good thing. I had to interesting ring my kids and say, I'm taking this role on because at that stage it was in the press every five seconds. And it's interesting when you talk about how it influences your family, you know, the kids needed to be aware that this was a difficult role that I was taking on, but also they were so proud of their mum doing this. But at the same time, unfortunately, there was very negative press on the business and

I didn't want them affected by it. So when you get approached for a role like that, and as I talked about my role, every role I've had has been about transformation. So this is not too similar to that is what do you do? You go up there and what I did for the first two weeks, nothing but actually talk to every team member, walking the park, going around and seeing how they're going and showing some empathy and understanding of what they're going through.

because not only was the employees in the park that were affected, but also all their families with what was happening. So I did nothing for that first two weeks other than listen and hear what's going on and talk to customers as well about what they're experiencing and how they feel about Dreamwell after everything that had happened. And it's similar to the other roles. Again, you're focused on the team and the customer. And if you can at least support them and help them through what was a very difficult time, then that in itself.

is all you need to do. So after a couple of weeks, I was walking the park with a lot of the team, the senior leadership team. We put together a three month plan on what needed to be done that we felt that would help people through what this time and we put it together. We announced it to the park, what we're working through and how we're going to support them. And it was amazing. It's 2000 employees up in that one area and everybody came together and supported each other.

from every part of the park and we were all on the same journey together and they needed to know that we believed in them and that we had confidence that they were okay and that we were gonna support them through this time. I had a chair at that stage, Gary Weiss, who's quite well known and he was amazing during that time. He rang me every single day just not to tell me what to do, not to...

actually tell me anything, but just to say, hey, how are you today? Are you all right? What do you need from us as a board? And he was incredibly supportive through that time, which I'm really appreciative of. The other thing he taught me and we both did is showing the team that you've got confidence in what they were doing. So where there were rides that were changes or they were doing tests on them beforehand, I was always out in the park, hopping on the rides, showing the team.

that I believed in them and showing them that I've got confidence enough that I'd hop on the rides themselves and show them that I believed in what they were doing. And it was interesting, my two kids at that stage were, I think 13 and 15. And during the school holidays, I brought them up to the park for a week and they helped out actually in the back area where all the animals were and did some amazing chores that I looked at them and they loved. And I'm like, why are you enjoying doing that? But it also showed the team.

how important it was that I believed in not only them, but also my kids. I was comfortable to put them in the park and go on the rides and show the team that, you know, I believe in you. So it was a tough time, but also incredibly rewarding in being there and being able to have that opportunity to work with the team.

Chris (26:22)
Yeah.

Yeah and I believe you brought on a leader in the team that had a policing background, is that right? Am I doing that right? Yeah, yeah tell me about that.

Nicole Noye (26:39)
like. Yeah, he actually came on before I started. He was amazing. So he helped out when the Toowoomba floods happened quite some time ago. What and it's a good good thing to raise it out. You couldn't do all this yourself. And so when when we talk about the leadership and earlier on and how important it is to surround yourself with good people. This was a perfect example. We had my he came in and he he was ex -police officer

but knew everybody, had connections through the whole community. And he was heart and soul. And so all his role was similar to what I was saying was walking around the park, checking in, making sure people were okay, looking after people. And also his part of the role was also regrouping with obviously the families that were part of that tragedy. So he was great. We also had another guy that came in from safety who actually was...

on Virgin Safety, Safety Board. And so again, I suppose it reminded me of surround yourself with the people that you need to help you through those steps. And yeah, it was very lucky and very...

lucky that I had good people to support me and the team through that time.

Chris (27:58)
Yeah, yeah, really challenging, no doubt, no doubt at all. And I think it kind of leads to this idea of organisational culture too, and how you sort of, you know, it's something that's a bit ethereal and a bit difficult to get our heads around. But when you think about culture in businesses and you've seen different businesses, how do you sort of get your...

hands around that or how do you think about culture in an organization? What's your perspective on that?

Nicole Noye (28:32)
Yeah it's it's changed as I've grown as I said earlier matured a bit. So culture we we often in the last in my last role we talk about culture and atmosphere right which are two different things but they play hand in hand. Culture of an organisation now is most probably as important as or more important than anything else because the culture has to be a positive culture and I mentioned earlier if you've got a vision

you want people to believe in that vision and if you're all united and you all believe in that vision then that creates a great culture because you all are focused on where you're trying to take a business. But I think the other side that's come out and certainly since COVID is culture is also about how you look after and you and you treat your team with respect and

It's not just about working hours. It's what you do for your team. If they're happy in their environment, they will make a significant difference in the business. So you actually have to care about people now. People all have different things in their lives. Yes, you want them to do their work, but you also want them to be happy in their work so that they go home happy. But we all know all the stresses that people have behind the scenes as well.

So you need to create a culture, not only that you all believe in the same vision and you all work together as a team to achieve that vision, but you also need to respect that people have so many different challenges. And if you can support them through those challenges, then that makes them even more part of the purpose of the business. And me in the last four years working at Collective Wellness Group, which is the Any Time Fitness brand,

Working in wellness was, I was just so lucky, fitness and wellness, I say, wow, what a great CEO role I've had in this last four years, is actually encouraging people to work out and look after themselves. And when I talk about workouts, it's not just about physically looking great, it's about mentally feeling good as well. And so working in this amazing environment, if you come into a business like this, and you're not focused on...

a purpose of actually looking after people, then it's not the right business for you, right? But so culture is about your vision, your purpose, what you're actually delivering, and then how you unite the team together to want to do it together as a collaboratively rather than individually. You get all of those bits right, and then obviously your team engagement improves.

I'm pleased to say every organisation I've worked in, and I'm very lucky that it's happened that way, the engagement scores have significantly improved. And that's by understanding people and listening to them, not just telling them what to do as well. And the more collaborative you are, I think the stronger your business becomes.

Chris (31:26)
Yeah, yeah. And part of your work in transforming, it's a challenging paradox, isn't it? Because transforming requires people to change, to do something different potentially, to take on some new challenges. And we know that people kind of resist change naturally. How have you sort of overcome sort of some resistance where you've had resistance in the organization? Have there been examples of that where you've thought, yeah,

We've got some blockers here. We've got some things that are not heading in the right direction. How have you overcome some of that?

Nicole Noye (32:04)
It's funny because I can't remember what the name of that book is where the ice is melting on change and the penguins are all different types of people. I can't remember what the name of the book is. But it's always hard. So I think firstly, creating the vision and the purpose of what you're trying to achieve and doing it collaboratively with everybody. And firstly, start with your senior leaders and then roll that out through the rest of the organisation.

Even I can't do a vision or a purpose where somebody tells me this is what we want to do. We've all got to believe in it. And I think if all your senior leaders believe in it, it's easier to cascade it down through the organisation. If you don't, if your senior leaders don't believe in where you're headed and they're not part of that, that's a, that's very difficult. But all organisations have blockers and that's unfortunately to your point.

There are some people that just don't want to change. So there's two ways to approach that. Obviously, the senior leaders or myself working through that and what that challenge is and how do we get those people on board? And sometimes the harder ones that actually don't want to change, by the time you do get them to change, they actually become your fan squad in the end. So you...

persistence and not giving up. But then there's also at the other side, which all leaders have to do in their businesses to have that difficult conversation if you just can't turn them and understand that most probably it's not the right role for them as much as it's not the right role for the organization, because it'd be nothing worse than going home every night and not being happy in your role. So I think there's two ways to do it, but I'm pleased to say, Nili, once you get some...

drive and energy through a purpose and what you're trying to achieve. Everybody seems to come on board and really get excited about the opportunity being part of where you're headed. And that's happened in nearly every organisation I've been in.

Chris (34:03)
Yeah. Leadership is not a sort of linear thing, is it? It's not sort of up and to the right. You know, we have ups and downs. Are there things that, you know, that haven't worked out for you that were big lessons for you that you learned? For instance, I had an earlier podcast with Ken Wilcox and he was telling me how he made a decision that actually cost the company a couple of hundred million dollars, which was a pretty...

Nicole Noye (34:29)
Hmm.

Chris (34:31)
challenging one to overcome but he got the support of the board and was able to overcome that and they learnt a lot from that as an organisation. But were there any things that come to mind that just didn't work out the right way but there was some great lessons in there for you in terms of how you would do things differently the next time?

Nicole Noye (34:49)
I think, I sigh, we all learn from what we haven't done well, don't we? Most probably more so than what we do well. Yeah, look, resilience is important in any leadership role. And I've made plenty of mistakes along the way. Most probably not collaborating, as I mentioned earlier, with the team early enough. But it was interesting when I went into the bowling and entertainment division with Arden, and here I am coming in, as I said, new industry.

very excited about the opportunity. And the business was not performing, it was a bit of a disaster. So there was so much upside there. So we did create the team to put the vision together and the action plans of what we needed to achieve over a couple of years. And I'll never forget CFO who I got on really well with, we'd throw in everything at it. The senior leaders have worked a lot of hours to try and change the business, because you've got to put a lot of energy into.

to change a business. And after about a year and we'd implemented so many initiatives and so much change and the figures didn't change. And I'll never forget the CFO saying to me, Nicole, what was all of that for? We've put all these hours in, we've worked so hard and the numbers are just not delivering. And he had his head down like this and I was like feeling the same.

And I was like, yeah, I understand that, but we've just got to believe that what we've done is right. And we don't need any more change. We've done a lot already. And I said, at this stage, we just got to hang in there and hold firm and know that, have the confidence to believe in what we did. And I'm pleased to say the next quarter, it actually started to turn around. And once it did, we had 12 quarters of consecutive growth. Because once we started to get the momentum,

it really started to improve. So most probably that was a good learning for me is I'm not, I'm not sure. I don't know that I'd want to lose $200 million, but sometimes you've got to believe in yourself most probably as much as the organisation and the change that you're making to be able to achieve those results. And so I look back and some of my lowlights is, and I think most leaders do it is I catastrophise things when they're not working as well as they should.

And I do lose some self -confidence, but also I think sometimes I go over the day, I'm sure everybody else does the same thing and I go, well, what could I have done better? And I end up getting more focused. Most probably one of my lowlights is I focus more on what the negative is rather than actually the positive input you've done to an organization. I think most leaders do that at some stage during their career, most probably.

Surrounding yourself with good people who actually support you when you are going through challenging situations is really key. And certainly with the Anytime Fitness and Collective Wellness Group in the last four years, we came out of COVID and gyms was the worst thing known to man. It was on the front page, every paper saying how bad it is to work out at a gym because you'll get COVID and having to take an organization through that and the challenges of all these franchisees we have.

550 clubs, 220 franchisees, all not making any money and holding firm and taking the business through that. You just can't do that and catastrophize and think about all the bad things that you could do better without having a team around you to say, hey Nicole, hang in there, you're doing great. We believe in you, we believe in what we're trying to achieve. And so surrounding you with people that actually care about you is...

really key to when you're facing those lowlights. And that most probably happened back in my dream world days as well is having good people around you that say, you're doing okay, you're hanging there.

Chris (38:38)
Yeah, yeah, it's a big factor, isn't it? And I think that belief factor that you've called out there, Nicole, right? I mean, just believing that it's going to work out, that the hard work is going to pay off, that there's going to be results that are going to follow and they might not be following in the short term, right? It's going to take some time for them to play out. So that can be challenging. But that kind of leads me to thinking about

Nicole Noye (38:57)
Again.

Chris (39:05)
And you've mentioned and alluded to some of these mentors and other people that you've looked up to that have sort of helped shape your own leadership and provide a good input. So they're people that sort of stand out in your mind that have been great leaders that have really shaped the way for you.

Nicole Noye (39:21)
Yeah, it's funny that when Graham Oakes, who ran Angus and Coot for 18 years, he coached me every day. So it was a bit extreme when I look back at it, especially when I became general manager of Goldmark and then Angus and Coot, he'd ring me from the car every morning at 7 to 7 .30. He'd be in the car and I'd be in the car. And they were the best chats. So in that half hour, by the time I got to work at whatever 7 .30 or so on, I had in my mind

what I needed to do and where I was focused. We didn't touch base for the rest of the day. But in that half hour, he would coach me and lead me. I looked back at those conversations and he barely ever told me what to do. He just listened and goes, well, what do you think? And he gave me the ability to believe in myself. So by the time I hit the decks, by the time I got to the office, I knew what I was focused on, but I also had the confidence that I knew what I was doing.

And he really shaped me and most probably was his amazing mentor and even when I left Angus and Kurt and went on to Braz and things and so on he'd still ring me and coach me and I'd go after a few years I went I think I'm okay now right? But he had such a he said so many so many sayings and I I look back and I and then I start quoting his sayings then you know they've had a significant effect.

And one of them you quoted for me, and I still do use it to this day is, wherever you are, be there. And it was hard for me. Remember, I'm female. Nearly every role I've had, except for one, I think I was the first female CEO of the business. So.

I had two children during that process as well when I was at Goldmark and Angus and Co and he said, you can't do everything. You can't do everything. He said, so wherever you are, be there. And I learnt from him and it's funny, it's a very basic expression, but if I was going to the sport on a Saturday and I was watching my son play soccer, it'd be in my mind, wherever you are, be there. So be there for your son in that hour. And, but when you're at work, you be there for work and try and balance that so that you're not.

trying to do everything and not being able to do anything well. So he was a great mentor and we still talk to this day and he certainly shaped me. And Bob Critchley, the other one I mentioned earlier, he was chair of Bras and things for a number of years and we stayed in touch. He also never really told me what to do, but just helped guide me in understanding what the opportunities were. So they were both most probably the best mentors, but what I've learned over the years is you create a network.

and everybody does it, but they're really important people. And so what I always make sure I make time from is if any of my network need me, I always am available for them and vice versa. So don't think that you have to do everything on your own. There's so many people that you work with that you create a respectful relationship with and most probably lose the ego and be, don't be afraid to ask somebody for help if you need it. And I've had plenty of coffees over the year where

I've been able to sit with people and say, hey, I need help in here. Can you help me? Can you help guide me? And we're so lucky to have, like I've created so many relationships over the years and I look back now and I've kept in touch with nearly everybody that I've worked with over many years. And there's a reason for that because I enjoyed working with them. So keep those relationships going and don't be afraid to reach out.

Chris (42:56)
Yeah, yeah. I like that advice about being there now, right? I think it's very, very poignant because it's so easy to be overwhelmed by everything that's going on in your mind, right? You're thinking about what's coming up the next session, whatever. And I think that's advice that we can all sort of use and integrate into our lives. Speaking of the sort of personal habits and sort of productivity and managing stress, do you have...

routines yourself that you've developed over the years? I mean, these jobs are not without a lot of stress, right? There's a lot going on. So how have you been able to manage that?

Nicole Noye (43:35)
It's hard, isn't it? Because there's never enough hours in the day. Everybody says that. So, for me personally, it's exercise. It doesn't mean having to go to the gym every day. For me, even a walk or something to clear your mind is really important. I do exercise every day, whether, as I said, walk, gym, workout.

I'm now back playing tennis, which I played at school, which I'm absolutely loving. I've just got to lose my competitive streak a bit. But doing something where you're outdoors or being with other people and just doing something that takes your mind off everything else that's around, that's in your mind.

So I know I don't wear my Apple watch when I work out. I know it's a funny thing. Everybody goes, why don't you do that? And I was like, cause I don't want any notifications to tell me there's a message or there's a phone call. And people say, you could turn the notifications off. But because I am a little bit focused and determined, I always want to know what's going on. But so when you are exercising or when you're going out walking, be in that moment rather than all the other stuff that's going on.

with Chibs, who was our mental wellness coach that we've had over the last couple of years. He said, you shouldn't even listen to, and I know that's funny on, we're talking today on a podcast, but he says, when you go for a walk, just listen to the birds or listen to the noise that's happening out there rather than all the other stuff and actually have some downtime. The other thing that I've learned again, because I played in the wellness space over the last four years is really learn how to breathe.

I know that's a funny thing, but breathing makes a significant difference. So he taught us to do a minutes breathing between meetings. And I know people go, well, how do you do that? But we did it as a team. So we put him on, he's got an amazing voice and he'd talk about breathe in, breathe out and for a minute. And you would watch the tension come out of the room and everybody then after a minute is refocused, ready for the next meeting. And I know that sounds so simple, but

a lot of organisations don't do that. They just go back to back to back without thinking about how we get people into that focus. I think the other thing is turn off when you need to turn off. We all need to turn off at times because you can't recharge. So going on holidays, pretty focused on that now is when you go on holidays, you go on holidays. Yes, if you need something urgent to help at work, then you need to do that. But

surround yourself with really good people that can run the organisation so that you come back refreshed. And at the recent role I've just had now, all our team, we respect their time off. We respect them when they're going away, especially with their family. And really, unless it's an emergency, they don't need to be contacted. But the difference is when they come back to work after their holiday is that they're ready to get back into it and have had a good break as well. So there's a number of things I do.

Chris (46:35)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's all important stuff. All important. Sort of jumping into a little bit of what's happening in today's environment. You know, there's artificial intelligence now that's sort of coming in. It's going to impact, you know, the way things are done. How are you thinking about that in terms of that trend? Is that something that you've considered in terms of how it might impact some of the organizations? I know you're an advisor.

or you're a non -executive director of Crown and also I think Go Get as well. Is that right? Yeah.

Nicole Noye (47:09)
Yes, I'm currently on the Crown board, Crown Sydney board. I was on the Go Get board previous to that. Look, AI, I think is very exciting and everybody's dabbling with it a little bit at the moment. Some are using it better than others. It's not something to be afraid of, which I think as some executives are saying, you've got to embrace new technology. It's just understanding what you need to do with that and how you maximize productivity and performance for that.

But I think going back to you and your customer focus is AI is really exciting where it can improve customer experience. And I think there's plenty of opportunity to embrace that. What I have learned recently is you need to put parameters around to make sure that it is delivering what it needs to deliver and you understand how that technology is working. But at the same time, people are saying, we're afraid of roles. But in the organizations I've been in, the more you embrace it, the actually you improve productivity so that people can do

things that they can't actually do now. So I like, there will be some organizations, unfortunately, which will take roles away, but from a customer focus, if we could give the people that have focused on the customer more time to focus on the customer and less time to do on other things, then imagine how we could improve customer experience.

Chris (48:28)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's a tremendous sort of productivity booster for them, right? So they can deal with the relationship rather than deal with the, you know, sort of technical side of what needs to be done potentially. How do you think about the term customer obsessed? I mean, how would you, what would you use to sort of describe a customer obsessed person? How do they sort of show up in the world?

Nicole Noye (48:41)
Absolutely.

That's quite a broad question. I think at the end of the day, as I said, all the organisations I've worked in a business to customer. So I think understanding what the customer actually wants is key to being customer obsessed and AI can help you with some of that. Every organisation, and I'll give you a few examples because it's a bit of an unusual one. So if you're a customer obsessed at bras and things, and I know that's

while ago now but that means getting the right bra on a person. I know you're a male so you most probably don't appreciate it as much but being customer obsessed is making sure that the customer feels good about themselves. So it's actually not the technical aspects of the bra. It's about making sure it fits well so that the customer feels more confident about themselves. So that's the first one. So I'd look at that

If we could get somebody in the fitting room back in those days and get the bra that fitted well on them, you had an 80 % conversion rate. But forget the conversion rate. The fact was somebody walked out feeling so good about themselves that they came back and bought more bras. Then how did I translate that? So that's been customer obsessed in that type of industry. Then I went into bowling and entertainment and I talked about the experience where we were on the, did it all ourselves. But if

If you're customer obsessed, the busiest day of a bowling alley is when it rains on a Saturday and kids can't play sport. OK, so being customer obsessed for bowling was quite different to bras where what happens is you had a 30 % sales lift or traffic lift when it rained.

but you'd only necessarily rostered for that number of team. So we added weather to our forecasts. So every time we knew it was going to rain, we put more people on. So the customer obsession there was how do we make less friction and get people onto bowling as fast as they can? So from when they walk in to actually getting onto a lane, that's a different focus than in the back of a fitting room, right?

And then the second part of bowling is being customer assessed is if 30 % of your sales are from hot chips, right? So customer assessed is about making sure the hot chips actually taste okay. And I know that sounds, but there's different grades of hot chips, right? Like you can get, we were, I think when I started, it was grade three chips. And I know people go, well, and what oil you use. But we, we,

change the chips. If we're going to sell that many chips, we'll go up to grade one and we'll use better oil. And guess what happened? The chip sales skyrocketed. And yes, we put the price point up to compensate, but nobody wants to eat soggy chips. So that's being customer obsessed, right? And then the last one, I suppose, is an example is fitness. Fitness is different. Like what do people want from a gym? They want 24 seven.

Chris (51:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicole Noye (52:01)
They want it to be clean. That's the number one priority for them is because you don't want to see old sweat and so on. They want the equipment working and in good condition and ideally some form of community. That is totally different from hot chips or fitting a bra. But as long as customer obsession is about what is right for the customer in the product that you're providing, what do they want?

And then how do you make sure that that happens and you deliver that experience and that everybody in the organization is focused on what that means to the customer?

Chris (52:37)
Yeah, yeah. So you're really coming at these businesses as a customer, aren't you? In many instances, right? You're saying, well, I'm a customer of this business. What would I really want? And how do we then execute to deliver against that? Yeah.

Nicole Noye (52:52)
And it's not hard, right? Like it's not rocket science. All the businesses I've been in, it wasn't about writing this lot of theory of all these things you need to do, but it's about corralling the whole organization to understand what they need to achieve in the best interest of the customer. And then look, sorry, and I go with that, but I'd also say at the same time, if you are truly customer focused, you are truly team focused. Because if you look after your team, they'll want to deliver that.

improve customer experience.

Chris (53:24)
Yeah, yeah. That's great, Nicole. What would be sort of one sort of final message that you might have for up and coming leaders that are looking to lead organizations and create successful businesses?

Nicole Noye (53:46)
Do you know, yeah, most probably has changed over the years. Remember I said to you, I didn't pass my HSC, so I'm not textbook leadership focused like some other people are. But what I would say, and I think it's becoming more and more important is your team will either make or break you. And if there was one thing I would say is make sure you surround yourself with good people and just look after them.

support them, encourage them, nurture them and don't be afraid that they know a lot more than you do in their component of the business and just enjoy and have some fun with them and just be part of a group that actually wants are united in achieving a result.

Chris (54:35)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great message. Great message to leave everyone with, Nicole. So thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me. It's been really enlightening and really valuable. So I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Nicole Noye (54:49)
And thanks for having me, Chris.